Supply management is in the spotlight again. What will this mean for the dairy, chicken, egg & turkey farmers? - Ontario Agriculture2024-03-29T07:21:20Zhttps://ontag.farms.com/forum/topics/supply-management-is-in-the-spotlight-again-what-does-this-mean-f?id=3646443%3ATopic%3A25567&feed=yes&xn_auth=noHi Greg,
the answer to that u…tag:ontag.farms.com,2012-02-23:3646443:Comment:312022012-02-23T14:30:24.930ZTherese BEaulieuhttps://ontag.farms.com/profile/ThereseBEaulieu
<p>Hi Greg,</p>
<p>the answer to that uninformed comment by Mr. Manley came the Monday after. Bottom line, we may not be exporting dairy products to China, but we are exporting dairy genetics there - and they love it.…</p>
<p>Hi Greg,</p>
<p>the answer to that uninformed comment by Mr. Manley came the Monday after. Bottom line, we may not be exporting dairy products to China, but we are exporting dairy genetics there - and they love it. <a href="http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/international-news/asian-pacific/canada-bullish-on-a-new-china-market/article2335698/">http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/international-news/asian-pacific/canada-bullish-on-a-new-china-market/article2335698/</a> </p> From the Globe:
To see the…tag:ontag.farms.com,2012-02-09:3646443:Comment:309562012-02-09T17:52:01.190ZGreg Edwardshttps://ontag.farms.com/profile/GregEdwards
<p>From the Globe:</p>
<p> </p>
<p>To see the opportunity for foreign dairy products in China, look no further than supermarket shelves in its fast-modernizing cities. In the grocery section of a central Beijing Wal-Mart, cans of baby formula promise contents from the United States, New Zealand and Australia. In the dairy case, butter from New Zealand sits alongside American cheese, sales of which are growing as upper-middle-class palates acquire a taste for more Western foods.…</p>
<p>From the Globe:</p>
<p> </p>
<p>To see the opportunity for foreign dairy products in China, look no further than supermarket shelves in its fast-modernizing cities. In the grocery section of a central Beijing Wal-Mart, cans of baby formula promise contents from the United States, New Zealand and Australia. In the dairy case, butter from New Zealand sits alongside American cheese, sales of which are growing as upper-middle-class palates acquire a taste for more Western foods.</p>
<p style="text-align: center;"><img class="size-full wp-image-9857 aligncenter" title="Dairy opportunities" alt="Dairy opportunities" src="http://www.bwob.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/canadian-dairy-producers-missing-out-in-china_post.jpg" width="300" height="200"/><br/><span style="color: #888888;">Chinese consumers’ suspicion of local milk<br/>means big business for foreign milk producers</span></p>
<p>Chinese consumers’ suspicion of local milk has changed little since the 2008 scandal in which half a dozen babies died and scores more were sickened by melamine-laced milk powder. Even now after sweeping industry reforms Chinese newspapers still carry occasional reports of quantities of melamine-laced milk being seized by inspectors.</p>
<p>That translates into big and growing business for foreign milk producers. China imported some 406,000 tons of milk powder alone last year, a number which is expected to grow to about 550,000 this year.</p>
<p>But very little of that is Canadian milk, and trade lobbyists warn Canada is missing the boat on this growing opportunity because of dairy industry protections back home. “Apart from the barrier that these programs of supply management have been to Canada making other gains in trade negotiations—quite apart from that, they’re bad for Canadian consumers, and they’re bad for Canadian producers,” said John Manley, the former industry minister who now heads the Canadian Council of Chief Executives, in an interview in Beijing late last year.</p>
<p>Canadian forays into the Chinese dairy market have been modest: about C$9 million in a trade category that includes dairy products, eggs and honey, at the peak in 2009. Exports dropped to $4.19 million in 2010, after China tightened import regulations.</p>
<p>Compare that modest number with New Zealand, whose exports in that category were the equivalent of US$1.41 billion in 2010. Most of those are through dairy co-operative Fonterra, owned by a majority of the country’s farmers, which also owns two large dairy farms in China and is now constructing a third.</p>
<p>Canada, Manley said, needs to be more like New Zealand. “If you look at what New Zealand has accomplished in dairy since they unwound their own protections, they have become a dominant supplier around the world,” he said. “It’s a country the size of Toronto. So what could our dairy farmers do if they were actually getting access to markets? It’s not as though there’s too much food in the world. There are huge markets for food and we think producers could be getting into that.”</p>
<p>Such access does carry some risk in this emerging market. Fonterra almost saw its business in China come to a crashing halt over the 2008 milk scandal. Its Chinese partner Sanlu Group, in which it held a 43% share, faced a recall of 10,000 tons of milk powder and eventually went bankrupt, its senior executives imprisoned. However, the company has weathered the storm and today sells its products both commercially under its own brands and wholesale to Chinese companies, gaining market share through training sessions with local partners that include everything from improving feed quality for dairy herds to working with local bakeries to show them how to use their dairy products.</p>
<p>“They have got a good reputation and they’ve managed to build on it,” said David Oliver, a New Zealander who is a Beijing-based dairy consultant. “A country’s wealth increases and people consume more dairy products. When I first came here 15 years ago, you’d go to a supermarket and there might be a little bit of UHT milk and that’s it. … It’s a good market, and it’s going to be a better market.”</p>
<p>Securing access to that market, however, would mean major changes to the supply management system in the Canadian dairy industry. A government-determined quota system ensures producers earn a guaranteed income, but also limits ambitions to expand—a double-edged sword, especially since improving technology means smaller herds are producing more milk than ever before.</p>
<p>In a written statement, Agriculture Canada said there are no plans to change its system of supply management, which leaves dairy production focused almost completely on the domestic market and limits exports to very specific products like ice cream, powdered milk and protein concentrates. Last week, the department handed out $130,000 to the Dairy Farmers of Ontario to develop more niche markets for specialty cheeses.</p>
<p>Agriculture Minister Gerry Ritz is in Beijing this week promoting Canadian beef, grains and livestock genetics as part of Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s visit to China, which has a heavy emphasis on trade. Ritz has so far maintained publicly there are no plans to change the system. But an eventual review is not entirely out of the question, given the recent legislated end to the Canadian Wheat Board’s 60-year monopoly on marketing wheat and barley.</p>
<p>Such supply management programs would likely come under some review if Canada seriously pursues joining the Trans-Pacific Partnership, free-trade negotiations under way among nine Pacific Rim countries including the United States, Australia and New Zealand, in which such protectionist measures are decidedly unwelcome.</p>
<p>“I think there is some concern. I think people are looking at that [Wheat Board experience], but the dairy industry is very strong and their lobby is very strong,” said Doug Yungblut, past-president of the Agricultural Institute of Canada and now an agricultural consultant in Waterdown, Ont. He said that, while the industry could expand production if the system were reformed, most dairy producers are content to live with the status quo. “It’s doing so well for so many people, they don’t want out of it.”</p>
<p>Still, the opportunity for Canadians in China is clear, given the continuing crisis of faith in China’s domestic industry.</p>
<p>“[Imported milk] is more secure and safe, and there are fewer fakes,” said Li Youhe, 60, as he examined milk powder brands on the shelf at Wal-Mart for his now three-year-old granddaughter. She was a tiny baby at the time of the scandal, when his family switched to formula from New Zealand and Germany; today, he purchases a domestic brand of children’s milk powder, on the reassurance that it is made with ingredients imported from Europe.</p>
<p>Canadian entrepreneurs at home and abroad still see opportunity. Zhao Youming, a Chinese agrologist running the private Canada-China Agriculture and Food Development Exchange Centre based in Hamilton, said in a telephone interview that his efforts to sell Canadian dairy products to China have so far been largely unsuccessful because of the lack of supply, though he is consulting with dairy associations on plans to open Canadian agrifood stores in Beijing and Shanghai.</p>
<p>“I travel to China many times. In the supermarket I see dairy products from Australia and New Zealand, but not so much Canadian,” he said. “From my point [of view], I think this is a good opportunity, because Canadian products are seen as good.”</p> My apologies on mistaking you…tag:ontag.farms.com,2011-11-27:3646443:Comment:285822011-11-27T15:18:58.195ZJohn Schwartzentruberhttps://ontag.farms.com/profile/burnt
<p>My apologies on mistaking your intent. I see now where you are coming from.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I could give names on the issue of immigrant doctor cert. issues.</p>
<p>My apologies on mistaking your intent. I see now where you are coming from.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I could give names on the issue of immigrant doctor cert. issues.</p>
john - you have me all wron…tag:ontag.farms.com,2011-11-25:3646443:Comment:285792011-11-25T16:04:44.027ZGreg Edwardshttps://ontag.farms.com/profile/GregEdwards
<p> </p>
<p>john - you have me all wrong. I have lots of friends who are in the dairy business, I wish that they prosper. all I am saying is that someone needs to be beating the 'pro quota' drum in such a manner that the general public will be able to understand it and get on-side. do you really think the public at large cares all that much about a self-created regulatory system? would they care to understand all its inner workings? I would bet that they do not. </p>
<p>'free' - don't…</p>
<p> </p>
<p>john - you have me all wrong. I have lots of friends who are in the dairy business, I wish that they prosper. all I am saying is that someone needs to be beating the 'pro quota' drum in such a manner that the general public will be able to understand it and get on-side. do you really think the public at large cares all that much about a self-created regulatory system? would they care to understand all its inner workings? I would bet that they do not. </p>
<p>'free' - don't be absurd. no one is arguing for free commodities. however, some markets are 'free' and I think people generally understand the concept of a market and supply and demand. the quota systems absolutely halt free markets.</p>
<p>but if you really think I should be allowed to 'grow my own' would you also not think that I should be free to buy milk from the US? </p>
<p>in a country that desperately needs more Drs. as we are losing them to the US I somehow don't believe your statement. perhaps the people you are looking at are similar to a lobster fisherman trying to find work in Alberta. are you saying they could not be a G.P.? </p>
<p>lets take another example - academia - researchers and professors move across boarders all the time. a friend of mine just left for the United Emriate to teach at a university there. </p>
<p>another example - professional accountants - I am a CA and after writing a 4 hour reciprocity exam have the ability to be a CPA in the USA. I have countless friends that have relocated around the globe with the Canadian CA qualificaiton without any problem whatsoever. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>thanks for the discussion, I will watch from the sidelines. </p> Greg Edwards said:
if a cas…tag:ontag.farms.com,2011-11-25:3646443:Comment:287692011-11-25T15:38:22.606ZJohn Schwartzentruberhttps://ontag.farms.com/profile/burnt
<p><br></br> <br></br> <cite>Greg Edwards said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://ontag.farms.com/forum/topics/supply-management-is-in-the-spotlight-again-what-does-this-mean-f?id=3646443%3ATopic%3A25567&page=3#3646443Comment28578"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>if a case is not made and put in front of the public then the battle will surely be lost. you have referenced a lot of legal mumbo jumbo - the public at large will gloss over that in a heartbeat. if this gets into the…</p>
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<p><br/> <br/>
<cite>Greg Edwards said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://ontag.farms.com/forum/topics/supply-management-is-in-the-spotlight-again-what-does-this-mean-f?id=3646443%3ATopic%3A25567&page=3#3646443Comment28578"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>if a case is not made and put in front of the public then the battle will surely be lost. you have referenced a lot of legal mumbo jumbo - the public at large will gloss over that in a heartbeat. if this gets into the political arena then it will be a political fight...</p>
<p> </p>
<p>trying to debate the legalities within a self-created system is not going win over the popular vote.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Greg, where would you rather live - in a country that is run by popular feelings or by law? It is frightening to think that so many people have so little understanding of all that "legal mumbo jumbo" and think that when they have cast their ballot, their democratic duty is fulfilled.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Greg, would you be satisfied if milk was "free"? My standard answer is that if you don't like the price of food or how it is produced, you should really grow your own.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Also, your earlier reference about cracker jack box degrees was extremely ill-informed and shows a profound lack of understanding of that field. I was speaking of doctors who passed Canadian certification standards and are unable to procure work in the area of their specialty. It is not a matter of qualification.</p>
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</blockquote> I am not looking for a popula…tag:ontag.farms.com,2011-11-25:3646443:Comment:288652011-11-25T14:30:33.809ZJoannhttps://ontag.farms.com/profile/JoannVergeer
<p>I am not looking for a popular vote.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>But you make a valid point. The public at large does not have all the facts in front of them and papers such as the C.D.Howe Institute paper "Free our Food" does little to enhance the discussion.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>In response to an editorial I asked them: "<em>How many sovereign licenses exist in Ontario/Quebec today and what is the value of those licenses? How does the Institute propose to pay for the securities farmers own today? What is…</em></p>
<p>I am not looking for a popular vote.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>But you make a valid point. The public at large does not have all the facts in front of them and papers such as the C.D.Howe Institute paper "Free our Food" does little to enhance the discussion.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>In response to an editorial I asked them: "<em>How many sovereign licenses exist in Ontario/Quebec today and what is the value of those licenses? How does the Institute propose to pay for the securities farmers own today? What is the true cost to the public to phase out the old marketing licenses?</em>" and "<strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><em>Where is the constitutional authority to empower the Government to charge a fee for farmers to obtain marketing licenses</em></span></strong>?"</p>
<p> </p>
<p>It's been more than 1 &1/2 years. Still no reply.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>So I ask. If there is a considerable financial penalty to the public in regards to the dissolution of the Ontario agricultural quota system, should not Advisory groups, of which the media such as Andrew Coyne gleam their information, make the discussion truly relevant by including all dimensions of the discussion? </p>
<p> </p>
<p>If leading advisory groups such as the Howe Institute suppress the truth about agricultural licenses in their discussion papers, do those papers constitute expressions of fallacies by deluding the Public about farmers' rights?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Recently I asked a staff member of the Farm Credit Corporation the question about quota valuations.... what would happen if all the quota was dissolved and Ontario expericenced a one time $50 BILLION capital loss?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The expression on his face told volumes.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Such a pity the media is focused on the <em>perceived</em> greed of farmers. It is a masterful deflection of the truly important matters that the public will face sooner or later.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p><cite>Greg Edwards said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://ontag.farms.com/forum/topics/supply-management-is-in-the-spotlight-again-what-does-this-mean-f?id=3646443%3ATopic%3A25567&page=3#3646443Comment28578"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>if a case is not made and put in front of the public then the battle will surely be lost. you have referenced a lot of legal mumbo jumbo - the public at large will gloss over that in a heartbeat. if this gets into the political arena then it will be a political fight...</p>
<p> </p>
<p>trying to debate the legalities within a self-created system is not going win over the popular vote.</p>
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</blockquote> if a case is not made and put…tag:ontag.farms.com,2011-11-25:3646443:Comment:285782011-11-25T12:47:04.147ZGreg Edwardshttps://ontag.farms.com/profile/GregEdwards
<p>if a case is not made and put in front of the public then the battle will surely be lost. you have referenced a lot of legal mumbo jumbo - the public at large will gloss over that in a heartbeat. if this gets into the political arena then it will be a political fight...</p>
<p> </p>
<p>trying to debate the legalities within a self-created system is not going win over the popular vote.</p>
<p>if a case is not made and put in front of the public then the battle will surely be lost. you have referenced a lot of legal mumbo jumbo - the public at large will gloss over that in a heartbeat. if this gets into the political arena then it will be a political fight...</p>
<p> </p>
<p>trying to debate the legalities within a self-created system is not going win over the popular vote.</p> I don't think you quite under…tag:ontag.farms.com,2011-11-23:3646443:Comment:285662011-11-23T14:13:07.381ZJoannhttps://ontag.farms.com/profile/JoannVergeer
<p>I don't think you quite understand Greg. I don't believe the farmers, nor the marketing board, need to work "on a case to defend the quota system". </p>
<p> </p>
<p>The Province of Ontario introduced marketing rights valuations through a division of the Ministry of Finance decades ago against the expressed wishes of the farmers.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The Province of Ontario vastly benefited from quota valuations. That means the public received benefits from a quota valuation…</p>
<p>I don't think you quite understand Greg. I don't believe the farmers, nor the marketing board, need to work "on a case to defend the quota system". </p>
<p> </p>
<p>The Province of Ontario introduced marketing rights valuations through a division of the Ministry of Finance decades ago against the expressed wishes of the farmers.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The Province of Ontario vastly benefited from quota valuations. That means the public received benefits from a quota valuation system.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Now, if the public wishes to dismantle a complex system, after years of receiving benefits, there will be a cost to the public. Even if the farmers do not receive a single penny for their quota.... the agricultural financial statements will reflect a tsunami of capital losses when the quota is dissolved.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>How does the Province of Ontario propose to deal with $50 billion of capital losses in a single fiscal period? I posed that question to the C.D. Howe Institute in response to their suggestion that quota be removed. I am still waiting for an answer.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The Province created this mess.... and the Province will have to solve this financial mess during an economic downturn.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>That means people like you will have a monumental negative fiduciary interest in regards to dissolving agricultural licenses.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><cite>Greg Edwards said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://ontag.farms.com/forum/topics/supply-management-is-in-the-spotlight-again-what-does-this-mean-f?id=3646443%3ATopic%3A25567&page=2#3646443Comment28462"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>I guess we just see things differently. </p>
<p>Sure John you are not going to see some medical professional from a 3rd world country who got thier license from a cracker jack box open up shop here in Canada...but those who are skilled and have the proper training can come here. Much has changed in recent times in terms of recognizing skilled labour from other countries. The academic community is very very open in terms of cross-border human capital.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>All I see you doing is trying to draw some analogies, I don't think that is how this fight will be won. </p>
<p>I have lots of friends in the dairy industry that I would like to see prosper, or at least not get hurt. I hope the folks at the dairy organizations are a little better at defending the quota system are working on a case to defend the quota system that is built on a economic cost/benefit.</p>
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</blockquote> I guess we just see things di…tag:ontag.farms.com,2011-11-21:3646443:Comment:284622011-11-21T15:38:39.907ZGreg Edwardshttps://ontag.farms.com/profile/GregEdwards
<p>I guess we just see things differently. </p>
<p>Sure John you are not going to see some medical professional from a 3rd world country who got thier license from a cracker jack box open up shop here in Canada...but those who are skilled and have the proper training can come here. Much has changed in recent times in terms of recognizing skilled labour from other countries. The academic community is very very open in terms of cross-border human capital.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>All I see you doing is…</p>
<p>I guess we just see things differently. </p>
<p>Sure John you are not going to see some medical professional from a 3rd world country who got thier license from a cracker jack box open up shop here in Canada...but those who are skilled and have the proper training can come here. Much has changed in recent times in terms of recognizing skilled labour from other countries. The academic community is very very open in terms of cross-border human capital.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>All I see you doing is trying to draw some analogies, I don't think that is how this fight will be won. </p>
<p>I have lots of friends in the dairy industry that I would like to see prosper, or at least not get hurt. I hope the folks at the dairy organizations are a little better at defending the quota system are working on a case to defend the quota system that is built on a economic cost/benefit.</p> Thank you John. You are abso…tag:ontag.farms.com,2011-11-21:3646443:Comment:282672011-11-21T15:22:28.800ZJoannhttps://ontag.farms.com/profile/JoannVergeer
<p>Thank you John. You are absolutely right.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I wonder how the cities were to react if, as an example, taxis were allowed to operate without licenses. Let the market place set the price and standard....... if you follow the arguments forwarded about dairy.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>How much is the public overpaying because of the taxi cartels? </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Or are we just going to be selective about which cartel to protect and which cartel to…</p>
<p>Thank you John. You are absolutely right.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I wonder how the cities were to react if, as an example, taxis were allowed to operate without licenses. Let the market place set the price and standard....... if you follow the arguments forwarded about dairy.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>How much is the public overpaying because of the taxi cartels? </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Or are we just going to be selective about which cartel to protect and which cartel to dismantle?</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p><cite>John Schwartzentruber said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://ontag.farms.com/forum/topics/supply-management-is-in-the-spotlight-again-what-does-this-mean-f?id=3646443%3ATopic%3A25567&page=2#3646443Comment27070"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Greg, your assertion that immigrant doctors can easily practice here after receiving certification is completely misleading. It is not that simple. The profession protects itself well and is not easily entered by immigrants, for many reasons seemingly unrelated to qualification. There are many examples if you care to look into it.<br/> <br/> <cite>Greg Edwards said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://ontag.farms.com/forum/topics/supply-management-is-in-the-spotlight-again-what-does-this-mean-f?id=3646443%3ATopic%3A25567&page=2#3646443Comment26871"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p><br/><br/>Also, I find your comparison to doctors et al irrelevant. the licencing of the occupations you note does not act as an absolute barrier to growth of the market. doctors and mechanics from other countries can practice here. certification is to ensure a common base level of knowledge, not act as a barrier to economic activity. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>the barrier to entry into the medical profession is the passing of medical school. are you implying that all dairy farmers have been to a professional school? </p>
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