Ontario Agriculture

The network for agriculture in Ontario, Canada

Surplus farm houses

Over the last year and a half in Perth County we have had the surplus farm house issue visited twice. Most recently about a month ago county council decide to turn the motion down for the second time. The issue we divide people easier than picking your favorite hockey team. I don't believe there is a right or wrong answer but my problem is if it has been defeated twice why in after only a month of being defeated is it back on the table. This almost feels like a federal election. Democercy has to be considered some where along the line perhaps we have to have the best 3 out of 5. In tough economic times does our elected people have nothing better to do. It is like the dog that has chased a cat up the tree and won't move until it comes down(alot of wasted energy and resources for no reason). Anyway just wanting to hear other thoughts on the severance of surplus farm houses. Yes or No

Views: 4659

▶ Reply to This

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Roadrunner on October 3, 2009 at 3:14pm
I vote yes....as farms get larger due to the economic realities...it leaves farmers with vacant houses that you really can't rent.
They will either be bulldozed or can be sold to people who want to live in the country.

I think that having people living in the rural area is preferable to having vast areas with no people...schools close, businesses suffer...

The realities of commodity cash crop agriculture means you need to reach a certain size to survive. 1 family for every 100 acres ended 25 years ago...some people just did not get the message.
Permalink Reply by Wayne Black on October 5, 2009 at 1:29am
I vote 'no' to surplus farm houses.

Quit using this opportunity to use the "surplus farmhouse" to generate increased cash to pay down on the next farm. A few examples have been the 100 ac farm that sold for $200,000. They turn around and re-sell the house along with 2-4 acres for the same price as a house in town - $125,000. Meanwhile a young person would have bought the farm and lived in the house with the opportunity to farm the land immediately or maybe rent the land out for a few years and down the road crop it themselves.
Also - if we want to allow severances of surplus farmhouses - be prepared for the influx of complaints about the noise, smell, and dust from our normal practices on our farms. Also be prepared for increased trespassing and "human pollution" (garbage) from non-farmers who do not understand nor care that the crop they are damaging is our paycheck.
Having the farm rented out to a farmer instead of having the house severed could also allow more cash freed up for the farmer to invest in more productive assets. When the person lives in the house and owns the land (rent out the land) they may also take more interest in cleaning up and not trespassing in our crops.
Just because you farm does not mean you "need" to own the land.
We need more residents living along side us to support the schools and community. But if we segregate ourselves too much we will be all alone when it comes to needing help.
Permalink Reply by Frank Borszcz on October 5, 2009 at 5:38am
YES
I think it should be based on how long the particular farmer has farmed the land. In my case my parents own a 200 acre farm, thats all that is left after downsizing 10 yrs ago. Dad has farmed the 200 acres for over 40yrs. With the new laws in place now he is not allowed to severe a 1 acre building lot for retirement. The only way this can be done is by severing 100 acres from the 200. You would figure after 40 yrs of farming that land my dad would have a choice. I want to build a new house on the farm and get back closer to the farm and possibly start farming again. My point is that these municipalities overstep their boundaries in dictating what farmers can do. I do understand the cons of being allowed to severe or sell off "surplus" farm houses. Perhaps if there was more control in the past we this wouldnt be an issue today.
Permalink Reply by Frank Borszcz on October 5, 2009 at 5:39am
I just read Wayne Blacks reply and I have to agree with him as well. So I guess Iam on the fence with this one.
Permalink Reply by Wayne Black on October 5, 2009 at 7:35am
After giving this more thought another question arises:
What is the land considered when the owner sells the remaining land after severing the "surplus farmhouse"?

Using Farmer Andrew as an example and Beginning Buyer Wayne.
Andrew crops 500 acres. He purchases another 100 acres and severs off the "surplus farmhouse" and 3 acres because he already has three other houses.
Ten years down the road Andrew starts to downsize and finds that the 97 acres is "kinda-outta the way". So he sells the 97 acres to Wayne. Wayne lives in town and crops the land because he can not build a house on the 97 acres even though Wayne does not have any "surplus farm houses". Wayne can build a shed and barn but no house.
When Andrew bought the farm, the house was considered surplus. But what is the house considered for the next buyer of the land?
Necessary... and definitely NOT surplus.
Using Frank's position you can still severe the farm into two 100 ac parcels and build a new house on one. His father can then live "rent free" in the house (as "rent free" as "free" can be). There are ways around some situations.
Permalink Reply by Peter Gredig on October 12, 2009 at 4:50am
I'm with Roadrunner on this one.......

If you have to deal with a number of rental farm houses, you eventually develop a bias and see the inability to sever as a short sighted policy that will eventually cost the community dearly. Here are my points (and there is a counter point to each, but I'll let someone else provide that).

1. The pool of "renters" is not great right now. If you don't have a mortgage at these rates, there is a problem. Bad debt, bad actors, bad news. Can you say "grow op"?

2. Even a well maintained century farmhouse is ready to bulldoze after 10 to 15 years of renting. The community loses the opportunity to have motivated owners who will build up the assessment value and help cover the cost of snow removal and other services. Schools and churches die for lack of bodies who help build community.
3. The arguement that it's better to have non-farmers own the whole farm and rent out the land is flawed. A lot of rental ground is mined for nutrients and treated poorly. If a farmer owns the land, he protects it from erosion, invests in tile, manages the woodlot. I have purchased farms that were rented for many years and it's not pretty.

I don't agree with creating new lots, but existing houses should be allowed to be severed with a sensible amount of land - maybe 5 acres. The idea that non-farm residents will be a nuisance is just wrong. We need them in our communities. The minimum distance separation rules have eliminated the livestock issue from most jurisdictions. If we can't farm in a way that is compatible with inhabitation, then what are we doing living there??

I'm ready to knock down 2 or 3 houses and they'll never be replaced. All that tax assessment lost. All that communinity revitalization foregone. Mile after mile of road with no humans. And we wonder why people don't understand agriculture.

Peter
Permalink Reply by Wayne Black on October 12, 2009 at 5:53am
I agree Peter - easy to counter point. I am just going to attack one though because this came up at a recent County meeting.
As for no one to support the schools & local stores. I live in the country and it is a 15-20 minute drive to the grocery store - be it Lucknow, Goderich, Clinton, Blyth, Wingham. For another 20 minute drive (because I am already in the car) I can be in Kitchener - how does that support the local town?
Also - how many stores, arenas, and community centres are in the country on the backroads? Locally we have at least three schools that are in the country but each school it supplied with students from three villages (ie. Brookside - Dungannon, Port Albert, Kingsbridge, St. Helens).
Whereas Blyth, for example, has 400 years worth of expansion available within the town (based on current data from the Planning Dept. as required by the Province of Ontario). Within the village is an arena, community centre, school (until the School Board closes it), library, fire hall, among other services.
Also - I will counterpoint this one - by tearing down the houses as you propose Peter, you can still sell the farm as a 100 ac parcel that will allow a house to be built on it as a retirement home for yourself or for someone else who decides to buy a empty parcel of land to build a new house and start farming. If you severe off the 5 acres - no house can be built on that remaining 95 acres. It is much easier for a new farmer to buy 100 acres to build a house than to buy 95 acres and live in town.
As I stated to the Planning Dept. I am biased since farming is in my blood. We would never allow a farmhouse to be severed off any of our farms. Neither will our neighbours, who are also full time farmers. Three century farms in our block, and not one family will allow farm house severances.
I am thinking about the future of agriculture, not the short term. I do not care about tax revenue for the municipality - I am thinking about agriculture.

Peter Gredig said:
I'm with Roadrunner on this one.......


2. Even a well maintained century farmhouse is ready to bulldoze after 10 to 15 years of renting. The community loses the opportunity to have motivated owners who will build up the assessment value and help cover the cost of snow removal and other services. Schools and churches die for lack of bodies who help build community.
I'm ready to knock down 2 or 3 houses and they'll never be replaced. All that tax assessment lost. All that communinity revitalization foregone. Mile after mile of road with no humans. And we wonder why people don't understand agriculture.

Peter
Permalink Reply by Peter Gredig on October 12, 2009 at 1:53pm
Well said Wayne - it is an issue with two sides and I respect that. You are not the only farmer in the debate though. Still don't see how home ownership threatens agriculture???? Remember, I'm not advocating new lots or houses. We have enough already.
Permalink Reply by Wayne Black on October 13, 2009 at 1:40pm
It threatens beginning farmers. I constantly hear that the farms are getting too big for a young person to step out and buy a farm with a house. By allowing severances you limit the number of farms (because two would be merged into one) and you also are forcing the size to become larger. A farmer such as my dad who has four one hundred acre lots could sell one off for a young person to start and have a house. Or he could move to one of the 100 acre lots and build his own house, allowing one of his children to run the "main" operation, with the intent to sell the farm in the future to someone who wants 100 acres with a house. With three children and four one hundred acre lots - each child would have a farm to build a house on. If he severed off the houses - not a single child would be able to live on the farm - until he moved off.
With so many farm operations just north of me (Bruce Cty) asking for 50 acre severances so they can start a small farm - why allow 3 acre severances? There are many examples of 40-60 acre farms that are viable. Not everyone wants to farm 600 or 2000 acres.
It is the same logic as an "expert" stated at a local Source Water meeting - "a livestock farmer NEEDS 300 NU to be viable." Absolutely false. I quickly proved him wrong by saying - tell the dairy farmers who have 75 cows that they are not making money. Tell the young farmers who start with 25 cows that they can not make it (less than 50 ac req'd for NM). Tell the number of dairy goat producers their herds of 250 goats is not profitable (31 NU so you need less than 40 ac for NM).
By allowing severed farmhouses on 3 acre parcels you are shutting the door on some new entrants to the farming industry.
Actions speak louder than words and if we say we want beginning farmers - better step up to the plate or... keep quiet. I am swinging for the fence.
If society wants us to produce more labour intensive crops - the 2000 ac farm will be redundant. How do we move back to the smaller 150 or 200 acre farm if we allow blocks of land to severe the farmhouse?

Peter Gredig said:
Well said Wayne - it is an issue with two sides and I respect that. You are not the only farmer in the debate though. Still don't see how home ownership threatens agriculture???? Remember, I'm not advocating new lots or houses. We have enough already.
Permalink Reply by Peter Gredig on October 13, 2009 at 5:11pm
Noble thinking. Not sure if it is realistic, but your heart is in the right place.

Cheers.
Permalink Reply by rein minnema on October 15, 2009 at 3:06pm
Think twice and think again,

A short term gain for a long term pain.The severance of a farm house is a temporary solution, it decreases the value of your property. By severing you get a new neighbor, you have to deal with setbacks and minimum distance separation etc. etc. Severing of a house is like applying for a building permit for livestock in a urban setting. Correct where I am wrong.This spring I had a visit from a assesment officer and her view was, never based on her experience dealing with people from both sides of the fence.
Permalink Reply by Brett Schuyler on October 16, 2009 at 12:52am
Assuming surplus dwellings are allowed, the minimum distance seperation issue is a problem. However, the land owner has the choice of severing that house off. If it will be prohibitive to future livestock operations then the landowner can decide to not sever the house. Albeit by severing a house future land owners are restricted to bulding livestock operations but this lost value will be reflected in the selling price of the farm. If that lands best use is for a livestock operation and severing a house will de-value the property then there is little incentive to sever that house off.

As far as dealing with neighbours the easy solution would be to knock down the house. Unfortunately it can be poor equity stewardship to knock down an existing house that's in good repair.

There are costs to farming with neighbours, there are costs to being a landlord, and there are costs to knocking down houses. I believe we should have policy that allows the landowner to make the decision on what cost they would like to incur,

▶ Reply to Discussion

RSS

Agriculture Headlines from Farms.com Canada East News - click on title for full story

UM Aggie Bedpush rolls across Manitoba to support rural health and wellness

The annual Aggie Bedpush is back this fall, continuing a beloved tradition of fundraising and community spirit led by students from the University of Manitoba’s Faculty of Agricultural and Food Sciences. From September 26 to 28, students will push their iconic burgundy bed through Manitoba towns, raising money for two meaningful causes: STARS (Shock Trauma Air Rescue Service) Foundation and the Manitoba Farmer Wellness Program Bedpush organizer Pyper Hollar explains the deep connection between these charities and the farming community. “Many Aggies live and or work in rural communities meaning that the nearest hospital can be at least an hour’s drive away. STARS is an Air Rescue service that can provide not only hospital transport when trouble arises, but has an incredible team of highly skilled professionals who can treat on the ground and in the air; STARS can be the difference between life and death for many Aggies out there,” she says. Mental health is another key concern. “Th

Tasters needed for bread acceptability research study

We are recruiting volunteers to participate in a Sensory Research Study in Food and Human Nutritional Sciences in the Faculty of Agricultural and Food Sciences. You would have the opportunity to take part in sensory research and learn methods related to the acceptability of food products. Details including the consent form and screening questionnaire are in the Information Package link below. Title: Acceptability of Bread with a Bioactive Ingredient Principal Investigator: Dr. Cristina Rosell (cristina.rosell@umanitoba.ca) Activity: Observe, smell and taste bread samples to determine degree of liking of appearance, aroma, flavor, texture and overall Eligibility: No allergies to foods or beverages, no sensitivity to gluten, 18 years of age or older, and no direct involvement or knowledge of the project Commitment: One Session about 20 minutes Session Options: September 23, 25, 26, October 1 and 2 every 30 minutes from 11:30 to 1:30 inclusive Where: Fourth Floor Human Ecology Buil

Saskatchewan harvest chugs along

There was good harvest progress over much of Saskatchewan last week—although there were rain delays in some areas. The weekly Saskatchewan Agriculture report says combining is 41 per cent complete—up from 23 per cent the previous week. The five-year average is 58 per cent and the ten-year average is 49 per cent. The southwest is 55 per cent combined and the southeast is at the halfway point. Plenty of progress made in the northwest last week, which is now at 41 per cent combined. East-central sits at 31 per cent with west-central and the northeast at 27 per cent combined. Peas are mostly in the bin with lentils at 84 per cent. Moving to the cereal crops—barley is 54 per cent combined, durum 49 per cent, while spring wheat and oats are 35 per cent harvested. Canola sits at 12 per cent combined and flax at three per cent. Volunteer crop reporters were asked to provide yield estimates—keeping in mind there can be large variations between fields due to scattered rainfall during the gro

“More positive than anticipated” is how Saskatchewan’s Premier terms meetings with Chinese government officials

Premier Scott Moe is crossing more time zones on Monday only two days after finishing a trade mission to China and Japan last week. Moe spoke to reporters at the Saskatoon airport prior to departing on a flight to the nation’s capital for additional meetings with Prime Minister Mark Carney and senior cabinet ministers. Moe and the Prime Minister’s parliamentary secretary Kody Blois met with officials within the Chinese Commerce Ministry—the body that is responsible for implementing import tariffs. It has placed very hefty preliminary tariffs on Canadian canola seed—as well as canola oil, canola meal, peas and pork. Those tariffs were seen as a response to Canadian tariffs on Chinese electric vehicles. That tariff was implemented at the request of the United States. It’s hoped the trade mission will begin a gradual process to improve relations between Canada and China.

Ontario’s most problematic weed -- Canada Fleabane Cuts Corn and Soybean Yields

Persistent Canada fleabane, now resistant to multiple herbicides, causes significant yield losses in Ontario corn and soybeans, demanding zero-tolerance management and adjusted herbicide programs.

© 2025   Created by Darren Marsland.   Powered by

Badges  |  Report an Issue  |  Terms of Service